Friday, July 29, 2005

Be an outcast, see the world.

"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence. True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation."
George Washington

Let’s face it, I’m sort of retarded when it comes to this principle. But I’m learning slowly...

So, there’s this idea that’s been tickling my fancy lately.

As soon as I get enough money, I could move, transfer universities or something...
I could get in little bit more education, get a job, make only casual acquaintances. Then before anyone gets too close...before I become vulnerable, before I fall in love, before anyone can make me feel stupid or ugly or dull, I will pack my bags in an instant and RUN.

Perhaps to another country? A language barrier might be just what I need.

I could go around doing good things unnoticed. Being kind to people in ways that would never call for attachment or recognition. That’s the best sort of kindness anyways. It lets people believe in angels and miracles. I imagine this is something like what the three Nephites must do... Perhaps they were gay too hmm?

Other than flying back to my family for Christmas and a few special occasions, I think that no one would ever know where I was.

If I can’t be in a relationship and have children, this seems like the next best thing.


el veneno said...

Hmmm. sounds like you discovered the same solution I did. It seems to work so far. Luck to you.

Given said...

You see, that sounds fun and exciting, but I rather enjoy stability. I've plans to do similar things but with a home base. A refuge from all the world around me, my home. My home is not yet established, but one day it will be, and when it is how much fun will it be. Me and my wife, assuming I find someone crazy enough to marry me, will fly around and just do fantastic things and give all kinds of money to all kinds of people. All kinds of money, food, drink, toys, whatever they stand in need of. But as for that whole, "Don't get attached idea," Hogwash. I think that's a load of bull. What good is life without emotional connection. And friendship being a slow growing plant, well that's hogwash too. Granted friendship can grow very slowly, many of my friendships have grown like kudzu in the hot Savannah sun. And their just as strong too. Life is about love and connection (but not love connection, that's a terrible show from the 80's and 90's). In what ever you do though, best of wishes.

Given said...

I always reread what I wrote once it's been posted. I really hate that I said "their" when I should have said "they're."

el veneno said...

Given-- mixing up their and they're... how embarassing! Well not really.
Just wanted to say that I agree with Given. After I posted my first comment I felt bad I hadn't included the caveat that you always have to have somewhere where you call home with friends and family who really know you. I've made plenty of short-term friends in random places in recent years. It's been fun to feel like I'm living a full life. I've had plenty of good buddies go off and marry and procreate and that still sounds nice, but I'm glad I'm not just on my butt wallowing in self-pity and yearning for unrequited love. Still, even when I'm away I depend on a few close friends and family to keep me grounded. After a few months of being away I can't stand it anymore and have to come back and see them. I've never had a real "kudzo" in the desert kind of friendship but I have had plenty of the kind that are forged through months and years of ups and downs. As you travel the world finding new friends who you never really know its always good to know there are people out there who know you even better than you do. Not to get sappy religious but I guess that's why I just couldn't ever leave the church. I depend on the relationship I have with God who is honestly the best friend we're ever going to have and that "I'm at home" feeling I get among church members all over the world.
Oh and Given. You're going to give out drink around the world with your toys? I had funny images of you handing out booze and dolls to little girls in Africa.
Ok, this a very long comment. For the record, I have no idea who Pinetree or Given is. I just know what's on your blogs but yeah, does sound like we're like-minded people. Luck guys.

The Ring Bearer said...

I agree with most of the comments above with the exception of using their instead of they're. (Sorry Given, but when I read your first post, I thought "ouch, I expected more from you than that kind of error."

To you Pinetree, I would just add my own 2 cents (that's about all the money I have right now). While I admire the noble notion of travelling this world without lasting connections, I would like to remind you of a couple of things. First of all, you already have friends who care for and about you. Yeah, on the surface this seems like such a gallant, selfless act, motivated by an unquenched passion to serve others, except for the statement you make at the beginning - stating that it is really motivated by fear.

I'm afraid this may be a longer comment than I usually give, and probably smattered with a number of errors, but that's what you get when I don't have my contacts in, and I read something that fires me up... *wink*.

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. As I read this post, it reminded me of one we both know. One who hurt us both. The PainCauser has a very similar philosophy - especially in dating. No one gets close. Relationships are entered with the expectation that there will be cheating on either or both sides. This prevents The PC's heart from being broken. Of course though, it also gives The PC leave to engage in guiltless cheating, leaving a trail of broken hearted and pain-inflicted victims. The PC of course sees none of this, since moving on is all part of the game, and of course, both you and The PC were *expecting* this outcome, no one was hurt... right?

We instill power in those we get close to. Power to build us higher, and power to tear us down. Faith, that fundamental principle taught time and again by leaders and parents does not only apply to Deity. It applies to each of us. If we cannot begin to exercise faith in our friends, in humanity, in a cause - however great or small, how dare we claim faith in a God we can neither see nor hear. The 3 Nephites had such powerful faith - not just in their God, but in the ability for man to draw closer to him, in the divine nature of man, and in the potential man possesses to do great things. They were not running away from, but toward. I am certain they have been hurt by unkind words, or insensitivity. I do not believe that they ran away from such things though.

You, Pinetree, have a greater power. While I realize you were just throwing this idea out there, I sincerely hope you do not consider it seriously. You have an infectious personality that has the power to do a lot of wonderful things. You as an individual, a son of the Supreme, have inbued within you the power of the Creator. As such, he expects you to be a creator. I want to see you as a creator. I am sure you are familiar with the old adage:

"There are 2 types of people in this world - Those who are Creators of circumstance, and those who are Creatures of circumstances."

Rise above the petty insults and hurts that come upon all of us. Be strong and call upon the power that lies within you. Stop running. Face yourself, because that is who you truly fear.

cry me a river said...

I don't have fancy words. Use the ring bearer's. He's right.

I love you. I miss you now, and I'd miss you more if you went farther away.

You're one of my favorite people. You'll figure this out.

Given said...

I love when posts spur this kind of conversation.

the king of ice said...

After reading the Ringbearer's comments, I figured I, as the Paincauser - at least, assuming I am, since he declined the opportunity to say I wasn't - in fairness wanted to point out a few simple things about what the Ringbearer says about me. 1 - I'm sorry you feel this way. 2 - what you say about me is not true, and you don't know me nearly well enough to be so mean to me and 3 - if you still have such a hard time with what happened over a year ago, you should call me and we can talk about things so you can get past some of this, and fourth and finally - if you really want these blogs to become an open discussion of the issues between you and I, I would be more than happy to detail out all the reasons why you were "left in my trail" and these good people can decide who the real Pain Causer is, leaving you with the advice that people in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

eleka nahmen said...

RB.. you do realize I must object quite vehemently to your description of the one you call the PC, as I am aware to whom you are referring. Your description of him, his ways, and how he acts in regards to relationships is really quite inaccurate and rather mean. I understand the discomfiture of which any reference to him causes you, but he does never attack you in a public setting, you must admit..

You and pinetree just have to stop this! I love you both, but do you realize the position things of this nature put me in?

VenerableRyo said...

I'm not trying to be a me too, but I wanted to add just one or two things.

First of all, Pinetree, I hope that you know that never allowing anyone to be close to you is not an answer, it's running away from the problem. And furthermore, if you allow such a thing to take place in your life and in your heart, then the "dark side" will have won. Darkness doesn't have to force you to be evil to win, all they have to do is teach you to not love. At that point, you will have been removed from the battle between good and evil.

And whatever the nature of your ability to have relationships of any type with either gender, you have a great potential for good. The only thing that can stop you from achieving it, relationship or not, is your own choice.

The other thing that I wanted to add is really just a simple thing. I wanted you, Pinetree, to know, that I have never heard the King of Ice mention you in any derogatory way as long as I've known him except for to wonder why it is that you dislike him so much and why these things still bother you. I have never tried to probe the details of that situation since it really isn't any of my business.

And Ring Bearer, I love the both of you and will not take sides. But I can say that over the course of the last year the only times that I have ever heard the King of Ice say anything in regard to you, is when he thought I was being hurt. And you know without me saying that I have defended you to him, as I have defended him to you.

As this is the mark of a true friend showing his concern for me, I couldn't possibly be angry at him for this.

And not to place too fine a point on this... but there have been things that have occurred between the King of Ice and I, and neither he nor I holds any bitterness with regard to one another. And in fact, he is one of my dearest friends and takes the time to make me feel like I am important to him regardless of what's going on in my life.

This is also the case with the Ring Bearer and I. Regardless of whatever has happened in our past, and whether things are my fault or his, the Ring Bearer knows how I feel about him. And those events have not caused us to lose sight of what's really the most important thing. The Ring Bearer, I hope, knows that first and foremost, I care about him as a person. And that that will not change.

Lastly, I wanted to say, as I told the Ring Bearer the other night, that I have always found that when I held feelings of bitterness and anger inside of me with regards to another person, that it never hurt that person. It only hurt me. It poisoned my own heart and feelings so that my "best self" could not be brought out to bear.

Regardless of who is right or wrong in any of these things, the Christian thing AND the adult thing to do is to forgive.

I would not care to speculate as to the reasons that either of you have found it difficult to do this, and it's not my right to say so. And I certainly don't want to convey the impression that I'm better than either of you in this. I know that I have learned things from both of you.

But yesterday, when I was at the hospital, and we had to do a spinal tap on an HIV+ man... and he was scared and in pain... he's lost the ability to move his legs... I held his hand to reassure him and let him know that I was there for him and he could sense my genuine desire to help him.

If I had filled my heart with bitterness, this ability for empathy would have been destroyed in me and I would not be able to do it with any sort of genuineness.

In short, bitterness would have destroyed my best self. And it is NOT just s result of my upbringing that I am able to do this. It is a matter of choice.

I chose to see the good in life and cultivate it. Not the darkness. Heavens knows that I have things to be bitter about if I had chosen to be. But there is magic, real magic, in forgiveness.

Pinetree, I hope that you will find your way through the hardships that have gone on in your life. It is hard, and no one would fault you for feeling that it is. I hope that you will find a way that makes you happy. And I hope that you will allow your friends (hopefully including me) to be there for you and to celebrate it when you do.

pinetree said...


I posted all the cool pictures before I noticed this squabble on my previous post...

Let me begin by saying I did not mention a single name and/or alias in my original post. It had very little, if anything to do with the KOI, and I honestly hadn't a thought in my mind about him while writing. It was a very general rant, the manifestation of a fleeting passion. As The Ring Bearer put it, I was "just throwing this idea out there."

HENCE, any of you who have scattered to the positions of "accuser" and "accused" have assumed yourself there.
Interesting how we can observe the nature of one's character by their guilt and presupposition. (as well as the presupposition of others)

The Ring Bearer: As always, I appreciate your concern and friendship more than you know. Despite the fact that my decisions will always be my own, (as you well know) you and the Smurf are people I look up to for wisdom, experience, and advice. You're a smart man and having a friend like you helps me out a lot, but perhaps this really should have been saved for personal conversation rather than blog exposé. We shall speak later.

KOI: The plain fact that you don't think The Ring Bearer knows you only strengthens any case you assume he has brought against you here. Those in glass houses are safer I think than those who only imagine they have a house to begin with.

Eleka: We love you too. :)

VenerableRyo: Where to begin? You're a good guy, VR. Thanks for the concern.
There has been a lot of interpretation in all of this and I apologize for that. I will echo what I said before and say that the blog was just a lot of venting frustration, something I felt I had the right to do on my blog right then... I have already had plenty of good, trusted friends set me straight and away from this seemingly destructive train of thought. And I know it's not the right's just that ever present discrepancy between who I am and who I want to be? ...I'm trying to apologize for being human here...its not working very well... The only thing I can think of to correct this is to stop exposing humanity to those who will take it as weakness or malice?
My forgiveness is free, and yet worthless to those who don't feel that they have done anything wrong. I have been in group settings twice in the more recent past (one in which you were present) with the KOI and been perfectly civil. The Ring Bearer has as well (and more than twice). I will not be exclusive to anyone, (I am passionate about this as many people will tell you) I will hang out and talk and be courteous to whoever wants me around (even when its uncomfortable)

Don't bother probing details of the situation, I really am not very clear on them myself.

To all: I feared this sort of thing happening when I first started my blog. To quote my first entry: "I'm not sure I want to share everything in this blog. Sometimes my feelings can be unjustified, my impressions and assumptions incorrect, my thoughts and experiences too personal. That, and I really don't want to offend anyone unintentionally."

Well, the shit's hit the fan now. So lets all just clean the poo off our faces. This really shouldn'tt be a team sport. If you need to talk more about it, email me.

"The race is long, but in the end it's only with yourself" - Baz Luhrman

I'll try to be more careful.

the king of ice said...

Just one more note for Pinetree to avoid any possible confusion - I realize that your post had nothing to do with me, and I only posted to clarify on a comment to your post and I was in no way trying to attack or criticize your post or yourself. And I disagree with you that my comment probes the RB's point. To say that one person does not know me is a far logical cry from the statement that nobody knows me. Such a thought would suggest that my relationships with persons like VR and eleka are superficial and fleeting, and I think everyone involved in those relationships would contend they are anything but. Once again, my intent was not meant to be anything but a response to a comment.

The Ring Bearer said...

I would like to further comment - since I am the culprit largely responsible for the barrage of emotional contention that has erupted under this post.

To all: While in no way innocent, Pinetree said nothing to provoke the way that I slandered the PainCauser. I accept full responsibility for my words, and if you have issue, then you do as the KOI has done, and take issue with me. We are all entitled to our opinions. He said nothing to come under the condemnation of anyone here (except those of you trying to keep him from running away, and I'm afraid we may have helped him make up his mind with these comments).

I will not erase what has been said. That is against my policy. However, I will refute what I said. I apologize to the PainCauser for the outward expression of a view that should have remained internal. At the same time, part of me is glad for having said it. We have not spoken for a long time. I don't imagine this is going to help that endeavour. However, this outbreak has given me cause to do some self-evaluation. No, it certainly isn't the best way to do this, but what has been said remains. We will both have to live with that. I will understand any further rebuke or retribution, or any course of action you should choose to pursue.

To the others who made a point of being clear that they were going to stay out of it, I appreciate your encouragement for a more responsible course of action. Your words are ever a police officer on my tail in this I-80 of a life. Sometimes I become careless, sometimes I forget the journey in the interest of the destination, but your words keep me obeying the rules of humanity. Thank you.

pinetree said...

I stand by my earlier comment. However for the sake of trying to get this overwith, I will not elaborate here.